Writers' Workshop Chat: Jennifer Ley, 12 Mar 00

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Dedication

by Jennifer Ley

I would like to dedicate this chat to the memory of my dear friend Alaric Sumner.

Reading over the transcript with tears in my eyes, as it shows so elegantly what a wonderful electronic 'presence' Alaric maintained on the net, I remember, with a sick feeling in my stomach now, given Alaric's untimely death, the moment when I typed the words "and I just hope I live long enough to enjoy it all some days." One of the main reasons I "said" that was because I was so looking forward to continuing to collaborate with Alaric.

We were just starting to talk about our fall issue of Riding the Meridian. Alaric was an amazing individual, a talented and unselfish editor, a generous and wonderful friend. I am trying to make peace with a world without him in it, as if anyone understood some of the things I believe about our new digital literature and its historical debts, it was Alaric.

All through the chat, Alaric was sending me little private messages ... which is where alot of my responses to him ended up. I wish I had those to add to this chat. I do know that he would hope that all of you would take the time to learn about the poets he chose for his Sound/Text Section in Meridian last fall, which you can find through the archives.

His personal webpage at Dartington contains some of his work and collaborations.

Writers' Workshop - interview with Jennifer Ley

Log of trAce Weekly Online Meeting, trAce Chat Room
Sunday 12 Mar 2000

Dedication

Present: Jennifer Ley, Helen Whitehead, Alan McDonald, Alaric Sumner, Bill Marsh, Frances Cornford, Jim Andrews, Loki, Margaret Penfold, mez, Peter Howard, Reiner Strasser, Randy Adams, Talan Memmott, geniwate, Sue Thomas & Teri Hoskin, Steve Duffy, Beth Garrison, Carolyn Black and Everdeen Tree

Session Start: Sun Mar 12 20:50:53 2000

*** Now talking in #trace
#trace url is http://hum-webboard.ntu.ac.uk:80/~trace

*** Helen Whitehead, Alaric Sumner, Margaret Penfold, Alan McDonald, Loki93c and Jennifer have joined #trace
<jennifer_> Hi Helen, everyone :)
<Margaret_Penfold> Hello Jennifer
* Loki93c_ waves, greetings to Jennifer et al
* jennifer_ limbers up her fingers
* jennifer_ wonders if Alaric is away from the keyboard ... nudge nudge
<Alaric_Sumner> hi
<Margaret_Penfold> What is the subject tonight?
<Helen_Whitehead> There will probably be a few more attendees, so we'll start in a few minutes.
<jennifer_> Helen do you know Alaric Sumner??
<Helen_Whitehead> Margaret: we're going to talk to Jennifer about her web writing -- or electronic literature as she prefers to say
*** Loki93c_ has joined #trace
<Helen_Whitehead> No, Jen, tho I recognise the name from somewhere....
<Alan_McDonald> Hello jennifer and welcome. Hi Helen and Margaret and Alaric and Loki
<Margaret_Penfold> Please introduce him, Jennifer
<jennifer_> Alaric guest edited the Sound/Text section in the last Meridian ... and is now going to be an associate editor for the magazine
<jennifer_> He's in England at Dartington
*** talanM has joined #trace
<jennifer_> talan :))
<Helen_Whitehead> Ah, that'll be where I saw his name! Alaric, are you a writer as well as an editor?
<Alaric_Sumner> he is also rather new at chat rooms
<Helen_Whitehead> Do you know Brigid McLeer?
<talanM> hey, hey... made it.
<Helen_Whitehead> she's working with us via Keystroke
<jennifer_> I met Brigid through Alaric
<Margaret_Penfold> Hi TalanM . Have you been to one of these before?
<jennifer_> I didn't know you knew her Helen
<Helen_Whitehead> Hi Talan
<Alaric_Sumner> Brigid works on the same course as I do, Performance Writing.
<talanM> hello all
<Helen_Whitehead> Brigid is one of a group of SW England artists/writers who are working with DA2 in Bristol and trAce
<Helen_Whitehead> I hope we'll see you both at the conference in July, Alaric?
<Alaric_Sumner> Hope so
* jennifer_ wishes she could go to the conference :(
<jennifer_> you're all going to have such a wonderful time !!
<Helen_Whitehead> it's a shame if you can't...
<Helen_Whitehead> Anyway, for those who can't leap the Atlantic with one bound....
<Helen_Whitehead> we have online chat to unite us
*** Frances_Cornford has joined #trace
<Helen_Whitehead> Hi Frances
<Helen_Whitehead> Perhaps this is a good time to introduce Jennifer
<Margaret_Penfold> A nice lot of new faces tonight. Hi Frances
<Frances_Cornford> Hello and Margaret - hope I can get the hang of this
<Helen_Whitehead> Jennifer Ley is an artist and writer who is one of our contributors to frAme4.
*** mez, Bill_Marsh and Peter_Howard have joined #trace
<mez> ello all!:)
<Helen_Whitehead> Please ask for help if you need it, especially those new to this kind of chat.
* mez has juzt bounced from one irc chat 2 thizz:)
<Margaret_Penfold> low Mez
* jennifer_ smiles at mez and Bill and Frances and Peter
<Helen_Whitehead> Hi Bill, Mez. Peter
<jennifer_> wow
* Loki93c_ waves at mez
<talanM> mez!
<Peter_Howard> Hello!
* mez wurdwaves and texttapz 2 all present:)
<Helen_Whitehead> I was just explaining some of the work Jennifer does. Her piece in frAme4 is Daddy Liked His With Heart and it's one of a series. I also enjoyed Body Politic, which was included in My Millennium and at DAC last year.
<Peter_Howard> DLHWH is a very interesting and curious piece
<mez> x-cellent.
<Helen_Whitehead> We must congratulate Jennifer on her frAme4 piece also being chosen for the SIGGRAPH Art Gallery, which is the art festival attached to a large and prestigious conference.
* jennifer_ smiles and looks humble
<Helen_Whitehead> Would you like to tell us how Daddy Liked... came to be, Jennifer?
<jennifer_> sure Helen :)
* mez grinz at jen and pushez her head up....B proud!!;)
*** R_Adams has joined #trace
* R_Adams waves hi
<Margaret_Penfold> Hi Randy
<jennifer_> After DAC ... a lot of the work I was seeing on the net seemed to be using a lot of tech
<jennifer_> in a bells and whistles kind of way
<jennifer_> I found the snare tracks at a site called Tims Tunes
<jennifer_> and started building the animated hearts
<Helen_Whitehead> not highbrow then?
<Helen_Whitehead> the tunes I mean...
<jennifer_> no not highbrow
<jennifer_> very lounge lizardy
<jennifer_> I think I wanted to know what would happen if I did something with a 'pop' culture beginning
<jennifer_> I knew I'd end up bringing it back from that ... and of course I did
<Alaric_Sumner> so the piece came from the sounds?
<jennifer_> mmm the sounds had quite a bit to do with it yes
<Helen_Whitehead> Did you write it specifically for frAme4?
<jennifer_> no, I didn't write it for the issue
<jennifer_> I showed it to Christy as I was working on it, and she asked for it
<jennifer_> I think it's been a pretty 'heartful' last few months on line actually ;)
<mez> do u have a specific procezz/sequence 4 n-tegrating the audio, m-magery, & text?
<Helen_Whitehead> You started with sounds.... did graphics or text come next? Or all together?
<jennifer_> to answer both of you
<jennifer_> my process is very organic
* mez calls 2 helen "Jinx!";)
<jennifer_> this time it was sounds as I heard sounds at another site
* Helen_Whitehead makes a high five with mez
<mez> ;)
<jennifer_> but often i start from some kind of ... gestalt
<Loki93c_> soundz evoke thought process 2 literary outp[ut??
<Alaric_Sumner> You say "building animated hearts" - do you mean constructing animated gifs? or what are they?
<jennifer_> yes building the gifs
<Peter_Howard> There seem to be almost two strands to the piece - the lounge lizard, and a more reflective thoughtful aspect
*** Jim_Andrews and Reiner_Strasser have joined #trace
<jennifer_> Peter that was intentional
<Peter_Howard> I'm sure it was
<mez> jim N reiner:)
<jennifer_> hi Reiner, Jim
<Jim_Andrews> Hi Jen, all
<jennifer_> You see a heart and think Hallmark
<jennifer_> I wanted to rub against that in the text
<Peter_Howard> It's interesting how they juxtapose
<reiner> hi . hey - am i right here . t
<R_Adams> anyone else have trouble getting into the chat room today??
* Loki93c_ moves up in2 rafters 4 better view above crowd.......:-))
<Margaret_Penfold> It was very slow
<R_Adams> it gave me error messages
* mez movvez downwardz 4 a diffurrent purrspectiff ov the crowd:)
<jennifer_> the irc connection seems to be very good
<Helen_Whitehead> let me know exactly what problems later?
<R_Adams> k
<mez> eek
<jennifer_> does that answer the question ??
<Helen_Whitehead> Are you restricted in your art by affordability of programs, or are you inspired by the technologies available, Jen?
<jennifer_> Helen had me prepare answers I could paste but I'm just typing :)
<jennifer_> ahhhh
<jennifer_> I've been working with an old mac now for a while
<jennifer_> I've always written my own code
<Jim_Andrews> (Are you a bandit, Jen? 8-)
<jennifer_> no dreamweaver
<jennifer_> ask Christy ... I write messy code ;)
<jennifer_> but I have a new Powerbook coming next week
<jennifer_> so watch out ;)
<jennifer_> I do have Photoshop ... my high end purchase
<jennifer_> I would love to have Shockwave
* mez trots out her mpathee gland..i have dreamweaver but prefurr knott 2 use it;)
<Helen_Whitehead> Did you get training in any of this?
<jennifer_> no official training
* Loki93c_ has to kickstart his dreamweaver & hates its random crashes
<jennifer_> lots of blanche dubois, the kindness of strangers
<jennifer_> and not so strangers :)
<mez> jenn>>u can get Flash 3 now on a demodisc/comp mag addon
<Helen_Whitehead> Do you think it's important to experiment?
<jennifer_> I do yes Helen
<jennifer_> let me go get that answer :)
<jennifer_> oh heck can't find it
<jennifer_> I think that right now experimentation is key
<Loki93c_> absolutely
*** ircleuser has joined #trace
<ircleuser> Hi from australia!
<reiner> why that? and now?
* mez hands jen a big phat key with X-perimentation n-graved on it
<jennifer_> the field is so new ... and playing with the tech is the only way to make it more organic
<jennifer_> make the interface more transparent or
<jennifer_> play off the interface
* ircleuser sits down quietly
<mez> heya ircuser:)
<jennifer_> what Reiner?
<billseye> jen, what do you mean by "organic"? -- transparent?
<ircleuser> this is Sue and Teri in Adelaide
<Helen_Whitehead> Would you recommend newcomers to experiment?
<Helen_Whitehead> Oh hi Sue and Teri!
<jennifer_> Bill ... when we read a book we don't think of turning pages
<mez> heya sue & teri:)
<reiner> was experimentation not ever a method to explore new ...
* R_Adams echoes organic question
<jennifer_> on the net we're still very aware of clicking linking layering
<Loki93c_> newbies have 2 xperment just 2 work out what's what though?
<jennifer_> I think newcomers should experiment as much as possible but ...
<billseye> jen -- speak for yourself! ;) -- i still don't get it
<Alaric_Sumner> what experiment are we talking here, technological and/or literary?
<Helen_Whitehead> Alaric - both?
<jennifer_> I think it's important to try to build a knowledge base
*** Steve_Duffy & Beth_Garrison have joined #trace
* mez watches the lullz and plowz, push n pullz ov the chat
<jennifer_> the coding available is very confusing it's gotten so complex
<jennifer_> Helen HELP !! too many questions :)
<Alaric_Sumner> you can take it!
<Helen_Whitehead> Ok
<mez> juzt filta them jen, we won't B offended:)
<Helen_Whitehead> Let's get back to basics....
<jennifer_> thank you :)
<Alaric_Sumner> relax and enjoy the chaos
<mez> again even:)
<Helen_Whitehead> How did you start working on the Net, Jen?
<jennifer_> I came to the web very much by design ... I wanted to work in hypertext. I was immediately dismayed at how primitive the coding possibilities were in the beginning, but that has changed rapidly.
* beth settles in to listen quietly to Jenn after waving hello to all.
* reiner wants to come back to 'clicking' etc. --- later
<jennifer_> My degree is in visual arts
<jennifer_> but I was writing and doing performance poetry as well
* mez datashadows reiner - remind me;)
* Helen_Whitehead nods to Reiner
<Jim_Andrews> What sort of performance poetry, Jen?
<jennifer_> I was in a group called the Feminist Poets in Low Cut Blouses, Jim
<jennifer_> I had a vision of what I wanted to do ... had to wait for the tech to catch up
*** ircleuser is now known as SueTeri
*** Carolyn_Black has joined #trace
<jennifer_> hehe
<jennifer_> that was very NYC very downtown
<reiner> what kind of vision ?
<beth> hahahaha
<jennifer_> the vision ... was to combine images and text
<Jim_Andrews> What sorts of gigs or performances?
<Helen_Whitehead> so did sound come later?
<jennifer_> the sound ... like the midi Helen?
<Helen_Whitehead> Do you use spoken word in your pieces?
<talanM> it's not too surprising how many VISUAL artist are now online WRITERS
<Carolyn_Black> -talanm what do you mean?
* R_Adams winks at talan
*** Everdeen_Tree has joined #trace
<jennifer_> I did use a lot of spoken word ... but I started to distrust it
<Helen_Whitehead> why?
<jennifer_> very easy to push an idea via performance
<Alaric_Sumner> why easy
<jennifer_> the rigor of the page/screen is a bit more difficult
<jennifer_> and yes Talan ... it's our new hybrid
<talanM> seems natural with the img-txt combo
<Helen_Whitehead> more difficult than what?
<Jim_Andrews> Both word and image are basic entities here.
<reiner> (the limitations are difficult ?)
<jennifer_> if you're in 'person' performing
<jennifer_> with an 'edge
<Helen_Whitehead> I think it's more difficult for those of us who were WRITERS to get the VISUAL skills
<jennifer_> that is easy ... to get a reaction ... etc
<jennifer_> but it doesn't last ... gah, I feel as if I'm just typing cliches
<Carolyn_Black> I'm lost without visuals personally
<Peter_Howard> very true Helen
* mez thinks the net.wurk is n x-tension of the n-stallation genre in mani wayz...
<talanM> yes mez!
<Alaric_Sumner> it depends on how you perform and your attitude to ephemerality
* reiner does not know sifficult (significant-difficult)?
<beth> yes, think you're right on that, mez
<jennifer_> well being visual is I think about trusting yourself to try, Helen
<jennifer_> I taught art long ago ... and everyone has some form of visual skill
<mez> jenn>>think the cliche purrception comez fromme havin to condense and pressure type:)
* Alan agrees with Helen, struggles for the visual skills
<jennifer_> I think what we're doing is turning lit on its head
<Peter_Howard> Not me! I don't have visual skills!
<jennifer_> image is not just visual/poetry is image
*** Geni_Wate has joined #trace
<Helen_Whitehead> How do you think the reading experience is changed by the new formats?
<jennifer_> being literate is now about being visual
<mez> hey geni:)
<jennifer_> as well as verbal
<Geni_Wate> hey mez, everyone
<Alaric_Sumner> letter forms are of course visual and always have been
<billseye> anyone who can write alphabetic characters has visual skills
<talanM> literacy includes being able to use a machine
* beth enchanted with the image of lit on its head.
* Helen_Whitehead shakes hands with Peter
<Helen_Whitehead> You're also an Editor, Jennifer -- of Riding the Meridian, a respected ezine. Do you think we can yet judge standards in electronic literature?
<jennifer_> ahhh this I want to paste :)
<jennifer_> this is long folks ... sorry
<Loki93c_> we can set our own parameters now, all previous art/writing rules r rescinded
<jennifer_> I get nervous around the issue of 'standards' in a field as new as ours, I would think they could be limiting. I think the practioners of the work are doing a very good job of defining a current, ever-mutable 'standard' which constantly changes as the work evolves, and I'm most comfortable with writers/artists providing any definitions that might seem necessary right now. As an editor, I see my role as one of making available the wide variety
* Peter_Howard grins ruefully
<mez> billseye>>ah, but 2 wot x-tend do theze skills reach?
<Carolyn_Black> perhaps the more visual between us should collaborate with the less?
<billseye> anything goes? -- i hope not...
* jennifer_ is amazed at everyone here ... these are the people who are teaching me what literature is about
<jennifer_> no not anything goes bill
<Helen_Whitehead> Yes Carolyn!
<jennifer_> i understand that concern
<Loki93c_> out of kaos comes eventuall order/beauty
* Alan_McDonald agrees with carolyn
* Carolyn_Black offers her services
<talanM> the chaos is only supposed
<jennifer_> yes I agree Talan
<jennifer_> the chaos is necessary
<Geni_Wate> the chaos is the multiplicity
<Jim_Andrews> Bill, why not anything goes?
<Loki93c_> because its seen from 2 close/individual perspective
<mez> carolyn>>zounds like a plan 2 me:)
<Carolyn_Black> mez - and why not!??
<<mez> carolyn>>fer sure! i was agreeing:)
<billseye> it's been done! ;)
<Loki93c_> examine it globally, its forming new life
<Helen_Whitehead> We must learn from one another of course: You were in Christy Sheffield Sanford's writing workshop at trAce, Jen. Did that help your development?
<jennifer_> that workshop was transformative for me Helen
<jennifer_> the support, the camaraderie ... meeting people who understood what I was trying to do
<Carolyn_Black> I wish I had gone
<jennifer_> even when I didn't know yet what I wanted to do
<jennifer_> it came at a perfect time ...
<Jim_Andrews> I don't see how 'anything goes' determines what is done so that you could say it has been done.
<Carolyn_Black> mez- I know, it's rather obvious really!
<jennifer_> I think communities are essential
<Helen_Whitehead> carolyn - mez - hold that plan for later :)
<jennifer_> for this kind of work ... we need to see each other trying things out
<Carolyn_Black> ok
<jennifer_> we need to talk to each other
<mez> :)
<jennifer_> flame each other sometimes ;)
<billseye> ouch!
<jennifer_> get our virtual teeth into what's happening
<Carolyn_Black> jennifer, i agree, isn't that what trAce is for?
<jennifer_> exactly Carolyn
<reiner> inspiration is always wonder.ful
<jennifer_> trAce and webartery and other online communities
* mez gets the hypertext flame x-tinguisher readee;)
<Loki93c_> germinate ideas/encouragement/constructivity
<jennifer_> I'm not really serious about flaming ... I tend to think it's counter productive
* jennifer_ swats her fingers
<Jim_Andrews> ehehe
<Carolyn_Black> constructive criticism is better
<mez> heh:)
* R_Adams moves his candle off to the side of the screen
<SueTeri> Jennifer, everyone is very individualistic - how do you think that collaborations could work best?
* mez is a sensitiff soul so likez the pos crit ang.eLLe:)
<jennifer_> I think collaborations depend on the individuals
<jennifer_> everyone brings there own side of things to the table
<jennifer_> a successful collab may have to do with picking someone who mirrors you or
<jennifer_> some directly opposite
<Helen_Whitehead> writers and artists :)
<jennifer_> aha well, most of the writers I know are artists right now
<Helen_Whitehead> do you collaborate?
* mez thinks this is where x-perimentation is crucial, in a wurkable collab process....
* reiner never was in a chat with 22 -- buahhh --- the window is too small-
<Alaric_Sumner> but it is important in collaboration not to extinguish the self or to be too democraatic, n'est pas?
<jennifer_> yes Alaric
<Carolyn_Black> could trace set up a collaboration facility?
<jennifer_> I collaborate best editorially
<Helen_Whitehead> yes Carolyn, that is a definite possibility
* Loki93c_ has been thinking along these lines
<Alaric_Sumner> ooh I like a collaboration facility or is that faculty?
<jennifer_> wouldn't you say alaric??
* Helen_Whitehead grins at Alaric
<Alan_McDonald> or factory?
* Alaric_Sumner snorgles unappetizingly
<billseye> chat = collab oration
<Helen_Whitehead> true Bill....
<jennifer_> I think you're getting the chat thing Alaric ;)
<Alaric_Sumner> Jen is what we do collaborating? is that what you do with the others?
<jennifer_> I've seen some amazing collabs
<jennifer_> look at Janet Holmes and Stephanie Strickland
<jennifer_> and that was through trAce and Christy's workshop
<Alaric_Sumner> Or is it simply coediting?
<SueTeri> my most successful collaboration has been with a programmer (teri)
<jennifer_> mmm I think it's more than just coediting
<Alaric_Sumner> good
<Alaric_Sumner> expand
<jennifer_> ahhhh darn SueTeri I am so slow
<jennifer_> it took me a bit :)
<SueTeri> someone with different skills, that match - and same creative drive, we feed off each other
<billseye> collab = macro-assembly
<Helen_Whitehead> The Holmes/Strickland collaboration is at http://webpages.mr.net/holmes/SandSoot/SSS/home.html
<talanM> remote macro-assembly
<jennifer_> well sometimes I think that the process of showing work on the web is collaborative
<Alaric_Sumner> ?
<talanM> here here
<SueTeri> (sue) I want to add to that the fact that sometimes a programmer might not imagine themselves working with artists and needs to be found and helped
<jennifer_> has to be as you build the pages for the work ... show the work to best effect with other work
<Helen_Whitehead> an anthology like frAme4 or the Valentine Files?
<SueTeri> (sue) we are hoping to set up a lab with Nottingham Univ Computer Science ppl
<mez> sue>>wow! that soundz great!
<jennifer_> as you can see ... when it comes to my own art/writing ... though I tend to work alone
<Alaric_Sumner> why work alone if collab is fun?
* reiner seems to have another understanding of collab.
<Helen_Whitehead> yes reiner?
<Alaric_Sumner> yes reiner?
<Jim_Andrews> Top level: network, communications rev, different from previous dissemination of works
<jennifer_> I think frame4 is curated
<jennifer_> whereas Valentine Files had a sense of collab as it was planned as a project
<talanM> huch
<talanM> editors now curate...
<Helen_Whitehead> editing / collaborating / workshopping / curating = all diff ways to work on Web
<Alaric_Sumner> huch is not enough, tell me more reiner
<mez> curators now edit...:)
<jennifer_> everyone does everything ... darn confusin' aint it?
<talanM> reversible, yes
<mez> ;)
<Jim_Andrews> cureditors
<mez> eheh nice 1 jim:)
<Helen_Whitehead> and some, like us at trAce, facilitate collaboration
<Carolyn_Black> art can exist on web without curators, writing without publishers/editors
<Geni_Wate> the bane of my life is defining what 'editing' means on the web
<reiner> collab. - i think the 'partners' have to be equal
<Alaric_Sumner> are they different ways to work on the web, or just the way work on the web happens
<jennifer_> very well too Helen
<Jim_Andrews> editators
<Alaric_Sumner> why define what editing is on the web when it is working well?
<jennifer_> oh god more vocabulary
<jennifer_> hehe
<Geni_Wate> because you have to explain what you do to other people...
<R_Adams> editors are uncure(able) ;-)
<talanM> define for discussion
* mez thinks collab is woven, tapestreed 2gether, thw wurdwarp n weft streamin from all participantz...
<Loki93c_> why explain?
<jennifer_> and Geni ... that's difficult outside our field
<Helen_Whitehead> Is an editor required when it gets to the point of being PAID for work?
<jennifer_> how so Helen?
<Geni_Wate> hah--because they pay me ... at least that's the plan!!
* reiner think collab - is one inspired by the other - in a fluid
<beth> paid? ..hmmn. interesting new concept, there:o)
<Helen_Whitehead> an editor establishes standards?
* Helen_Whitehead smiles at Beth
<jennifer_> I think that editors do this
<Carolyn_Black> reiner I would agree with that, but the fluids have to be compatible
<jennifer_> some more agressively than others
<mez> yr fluidancing ideer reiner:) [bootiful]
<jennifer_> I think you can address multiplicity without getting too narrow
<reiner> fluid exists outside of harmony - too
<Geni_Wate> web editors don't really establish standards in my experience---there are no standards...all I do is suggest a range of options then the client chooses...
<beth> fluid dynamics..hmnn.
<jennifer_> oh I think we do Geni
<jennifer_> we decide what to show
<jennifer_> by default that IS a standard
<Alaric_Sumner> why call yourselves editors if it is a new form which isn't really quite editing? isn't it just something ELSE
<Helen_Whitehead> ah, are we talking content editor here or electronic lit editor, like Jen for Riding the Meridian, Talan for Beehive?
<mez> thatz setting the standards thru showing isn't it?
<jennifer_> but darn it ... here I am talking about editing
<Geni_Wate> jen I think you work with different types of clients/sites than me (at least in terms of my income)
<Helen_Whitehead> They still call film editors editors
<Jim_Andrews> I like to publish by having the mag link to vispo... mag as hub...
<Helen_Whitehead> VERY diff from print editing
<reiner> an editor makes code
<jennifer_> ouch reiner
<Geni_Wate> alaric I agree there should be a new term
<Alan_McDonald> editors cut
<Alaric_Sumner> exactly
<Alaric_Sumner> it is a different sort of work
<jennifer_> if that's all an editor does ... I'm quitting ;)
<Loki93c_> fulcrumer
<mez> pivotpurrson:)
<billseye> editor --> agent
<beth> i need to go, but its been excellent and raging to listen ..thanks all. beth, out.
<mez> bi bi beth:)
<Alan_McDonald> nodal
<Geni_Wate> goddess i think mez
<Jim_Andrews> A friend said that in creating things like mags and hubs we complete something beyond ourselves... I like that and Jen does that...
<Helen_Whitehead> Shall we get back to the Daddy Liked series Jen? Where do they/will they appear?
<jennifer_> thanks Helen
<jennifer_> I have a new hearts piece ... the Midas Touch/Fool's Gold
<jennifer_> http://www.heelstone.com/foolsgold
<Helen_Whitehead> thanks Jennifer
<jennifer_> I'm going to be showing this work at SUNY Buffalo in April
<Peter_Howard> Midas Touch is wonderful!
<etree> bye beth
* beth winks at mez
<jennifer_> to Loss Glazier's class ... and reading there ... and then doing NEMLA (NorthEast Chapter of Modern Languages Association) with Loss
<jennifer_> Miekal And and Jim Rosenberg
* mez wurdwinkez bac:)
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<Alaric_Sumner> the music is getting on my nerves!
<jennifer_> we'll give em modern I guess ;)
<Carolyn_Black> jennifer the music is amazing!
<jennifer_> it's supposed to, Alaric
<Carolyn_Black> jennifer I tried 2 links, but didn't work, is it early stages?
<jennifer_> something happened with this group of pieces ... my work before this was much more meditative
<jennifer_> it isn't supposed to work Carolyn
<jennifer_> read the error messages
<Carolyn_Black> jennifer sorry
<R_Adams> in my experience, editors usually share some notion of what a work is all about, though, sometimes, the writer/artist's intent can be lost/diluted/changed, sometimes for the better, sometimes not
<talanM> this piece is a fave of mine!
<jennifer_> that's ok Carolyn ... I it's a subversive little thingie
<Carolyn_Black> oh no, not an Alan type piece, like the lost project!
<jennifer_> could I have a sec ... ?? brb
<Helen_Whitehead> ah, fake 404s, like Alan Sondheim's Lost project!
<billseye> regards, all -- thanks
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<jennifer_> back
* jennifer_ hadn't seen Alan's project
<jennifer_> I think someone else did this before too
<Margaret_Penfold> Hey I managed to get that URL and still keep in Chat. This new version of webboard works, Helen
* Helen_Whitehead grins at Margaret
<Carolyn_Black> I did that too
* Jim_Andrews Jim thinks he saw Jen hover above the dingy and fly away for a bit
<Alaric_Sumner> ha!
<Margaret_Penfold> Yes the music does persist. I just turn down the speakers.
<mez> I've used fake 404's b4..on my nav page, 4 n-stance
<Helen_Whitehead> well, we have to keep experimenting, and sometimes someone else will have tried that!
<talanM> I think this works because the self-conscious tech pun is used in a context about intimate attachment
<jennifer_> well I think the whole Modernism new new new thing is boring anyway
<Carolyn_Black> modernism is dead
<jennifer_> thanks Talan
<mez> don't we juzt create n if something. some1, somewhere hazz done it b4 then that'z juzt an ass.side?
<jennifer_> perhaps all work is one big attribution ...
<talanM> on one level this media/um is completely modern
<Helen_Whitehead> Let's get back to the idea that the medium still defines how it is read. We are used to immersion in books, but the click-type of electronic work still intrudes. Is that what you were trying to say earlier Jen?
<jennifer_> yes Helen exactly
<mez> post modernism is dead [says mz post modernism:)]
<jennifer_> I've been trying to write about this ... in a theoretical sense
<jennifer_> I think if we are honest with each other ... those of us who do this work
<jennifer_> we will see that the interface is still an issue
<jennifer_> pacing is an issue
<reiner> re is in :)
<Alaric_Sumner> why does click intrude? Why can't it be immersive? I feel immersed
* jennifer_ sets up a rebound net for everyone
<Helen_Whitehead> web pages display according to the USER's browser, we cannot control entirely what they will see?
<mez> my latest proj gen is about the inter/reface..called "dataface babee"
<jennifer_> ah but you're aware of clicking and getting somewhere ...
<Carolyn_Black> Mark Amerika said the same last week, the click is a deliberate action
<jennifer_> which sets up expectations of pacing
<Helen_Whitehead> mez -- is that available?
<jennifer_> well now I'll have to talk to Mark about attribution ;)
<Jim_Andrews> daddy databases mommy databases baby databases
<jennifer_> hehehe
<Carolyn_Black> but the alternative seems to be random programming, where the viewer has no control
<reiner> mez - the link ?
<jennifer_> no ...
<jennifer_> the alternative is something we need to discover
<jennifer_> and also ... a learning curve for the reading audience of our work
<mez> helen>>nope, still in progress, am d-batin whether to open it up for a collab and am sekin sponsorshippe thru leonardo....i'll let u know how it goez though:)
<reiner> dualistic thinking ---- random + click ++++++
<Helen_Whitehead> How long have you been on the Web Alaric?
<Helen_Whitehead> Maybe you're immersed, Alaric, because you have learned the medium's methods
<jennifer_> Christy's written a lot about this too via here layering ... yes??
<talanM> her essay in BeeHive covers it
<Carolyn_Black> reiner is that possible?
<mez> sorry reiner will pozt the link to webartery [mailing list] when itz done:)
<Alaric_Sumner> Ha! I have been working on computers since 1979 but only on the web for 5 yrs
<Helen_Whitehead> that's a lifetime on the Web Alaric!
<Alaric_Sumner> well four then
<jennifer_> I think I noticed this most in text based hypertext works
<reiner> a link can have very different 'meanings'
<jennifer_> yes reiner
<jennifer_> a link is conjunction ...
<Jim_Andrews> Thanks all, have to work today... cheers Jen.
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<Margaret_Penfold> Thanks for a good evening, Jennifer. I have to go now
<Helen_Whitehead> bye marg
<Margaret_Penfold> Bye everyone
<Carolyn_Black> bye
<jennifer_> bye Margaret
<reiner> bye
<talanM> of course reiner, where a ? can't
<talanM> link as punctuation
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<jennifer_> or as >
<Alaric_Sumner> depends how you pronounce your "?"
<reiner> link as punktuation when e.g. onmouseover a comma
<talanM> it is hyper-syntatic
<Alaric_Sumner> Michael atavar's piece intimacy uses the 'mouse over' very well simply and elegantly
<Frances_Cornford> Thanks jennifer and everyone - really interesting. Have to go
<Helen_Whitehead> bye frances come again
<jennifer_> bye Frances
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<talanM> I have to run as well..... Bye all... Great Chat!
<jennifer_> bye Talan
<mez> cya talan
<reiner> ciao
<Helen_Whitehead> Bye Talan
*** talanM has left #trace
<jennifer_> also interested in hearing about how Verve is gong
<jennifer_> going
<reiner> ---- hmmmm have to leave to --- seeU --- thanks :)
* Peter_Howard thinks it's time for him to go as well
* R_Adams tosses popcorn from the balcony
<Helen_Whitehead> bye Reiner!
<mez> bye reiner:)
<Alaric_Sumner> too short
<Peter_Howard> Thanks very much all. Bye
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<Helen_Whitehead> Bye Peter, nice to talk to you
<Alaric_Sumner> don't all go
<mez> ;)
<jennifer_> bye Peter
<SueTeri> verve has been fantastic, we had a great day devoted to electronic writing as part of the adelaide festival artists week
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* Loki93c_ drifts down from rafters 2 less crowded posh seats
* mez ponderz the Death of An Irc Chat:)
<jennifer_> and now the site will do what SueTeri?
* Helen_Whitehead makes room for Loki right at the front
* Loki93c_ smiles thanx
<SueTeri> I'm not sure, it will stay, be archived on ensemble and anat
<jennifer_> and the list serv??
<SueTeri> there are 'pricklings' there, still growing too
<jennifer_> pricklings?
<Geni_Wate> so the listserv is indefinite?
* jennifer_ has enjoyed the listserv to date
<SueTeri> pricklings is based on noon quilt, except the design is generated according to variables of time and word length
<jennifer_> aha
<SueTeri> 100 words, anything to do with "other' writing
<jennifer_> Can I ask a question of you all?
<Alaric_Sumner> yes
<mez> shore!
<Helen_Whitehead> go ahead Jen
<jennifer_> does anyone else have trouble keeping up with all the opportunities we have now?
<Alaric_Sumner> opportunities? are there any? where?
<Helen_Whitehead> yep...but that's partly what trAce is for.... to help writers keep track!
<jennifer_> It's amazing and wonderful
<mez> a liddle, but i preddy much try and seleckt the good fromme the not-sew-good:)
<jennifer_> and I just hope I live long enough to enjoy it all some days
<SueTeri> (sue) yes but we need Money
<jennifer_> oh yes we need Money
<Alaric_Sumner> you never need money
<Helen_Whitehead> Alaric try the trAce general news page for opportunities http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/news/gennews.htm
* mez doezn't have any money:(
<SueTeri> i think we need to formalise ourselves - internationally
<Alaric_Sumner> oh no? formal dress?
<Alaric_Sumner> national costume?
<jennifer_> oooo
<SueTeri> yes, bow ties
* jennifer_ loves dress up sorry ;)
* Helen_Whitehead hands round the hat...If you have enjoyed this chat.....
* R_Adams checks his piggy bank, listens to the echo
<jennifer_> lol Helen
* etree drops in an obol
<mez> form.mal.duh.hizing
<mez> ?
* jennifer_ looks at her debit column
<SueTeri> what i mean is
<SueTeri> oh, just that i would like to see more recognition
<jennifer_> I agree SueTeri
<mez> me 2
<SueTeri> here in adelaide (this is sue btw) there is an amazing group of artists
* jennifer_ wrote to the NY Times about the Women's issue
<jennifer_> and heard that they already write quite a bit about women
<jennifer_> darned if you do, darned if you don't
* Loki93c_ thinks we need the rock'n'roll approach 2 publicizing our stuff
* Alaric_Sumner has to go because he is about to be thrown out of his office and wants to say thanks and I will be back. It was my first time
<SueTeri> jennifer - what do you mean? say more?
<SueTeri> bye alaric
<jennifer_> bye Alaric thanks for coming
<mez> jenn>>good 1, let uz no if mirapaul uses it:)
<Helen_Whitehead> Come again Alaric, great to c u
<jennifer_> He said he would try to work in a mention
<SueTeri> loki- rocknroll? black tshirts?
<Carolyn_Black> I'm now immersed in browsing webartery, so had better go, distracted
<jennifer_> I wrote back and said ... well there's always Women's History Month
<Loki93c_> nah, but seize all opps 2 publicise what we do in upbeat way
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<Loki93c_> we need internet characters the way literature has 'em
<Helen_Whitehead> i was in the local paper last wed, publicising web writing project :)
<jennifer_> I think I'd just like to see more funding opportunities for people on the web
<jennifer_> not the big Webby Prize to one person
<SueTeri> agreed jen
<jennifer_> but smaller grants to more people
<Loki93c_> burroughs, thompsons et al, writer/artists as performer 24-7
<mez> we do have that loki, juzt that thizz seems to be ghettohizing it for us all...
<jennifer_> you can do so much with $1000
<Helen_Whitehead> but they described trAce as "a circle of writers who publish their work on the Web"
<jennifer_> ahhh
<jennifer_> I've seen that too
<SueTeri> i think we should take a stand on this notion of web publication
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<jennifer_> someone listed Astro as self-published poetry
<jennifer_> gah
<Loki93c_> for or against?
<jennifer_> what kind of stand??
<SueTeri> loki- just explanatory
<Helen_Whitehead> i agree
<SueTeri> define the different kinds, maybe
<mez> i think big net.art stars like jodi or etoy tend to make the rest of uz look unprofessional, it shoodn't be like that...
<SueTeri> i am tired of hearing webwork demeaned
<jennifer_> is it demeaned?
<SueTeri> and i am tired of hearing writers who only want to be 'published' online without an understanding of what online is
<jennifer_> well that too or
<SueTeri> jen - dont you think it is demeaned?
* Loki93c_ agrees withSueTeri
<mez> sueteri>>here her[e]!
<jennifer_> sites that want to get on the hypertext bandwagon cuz it's 'cool' now
<Geni_Wate> i think a lot of people try to apply traditional (even Leavisite) critical standards to it still
<SueTeri> esp by academics and publishers
<jennifer_> mmmm
<Loki93c_> right
<jennifer_> I think I'm spoiled lately by getting to go to SUNY, etc
<jennifer_> I never expected them to support a non-academic
<SueTeri> yes jen, you are!
<Loki93c_> maybe we should declare that literature (formal) is dead? a manifesto?
* SueTeri laughs
<jennifer_> I've been very surprised by that
* R_Adams wondering if we're worrying too much (we are here, here, here, aren't we?)
<mez> itz like a love hate thang, some academics luv net.wurk and some treat it as a noveltee
<SueTeri> america is more supportive, that's for sure
<jennifer_> ahh so it's a US thing then ...
<jennifer_> I think it will be interesting to see what shakes out of the conferences
<jennifer_> and new shows at places like the Walker and the Whitney this year
<jennifer_> as to our credibility
<mez> i find it surprisin as to the niching of artistz and n-stitutionz, making distinctions
<SueTeri> yes i will watch with interest
* jennifer_ thinks that niching has to go
<R_Adams> at least we don't have to worry about parking
* mez doez too, but dozn't c it budging
<jennifer_> artists are writers are editors are collaborators are curators
<mez> eheh good one r
<SueTeri> jen, do you think it will divide up again eventually?
<jennifer_> I hope not
<jennifer_> I saw the Judy Malloy panel as more 'arts' ... and specifically, editorially plan to try to make this 'line' non-existent
<jennifer_> I guess I have a Mission ;)
<jennifer_> what do you think SueTeri
<SueTeri> we are just discussing this
<SueTeri> Teri thinks she moves between different modes and i do too but
<SueTeri> i also think that webwork may become more like film, with a 'crew'
<jennifer_> mmmmm
<SueTeri> a group of highly skilled ppl working together
<R_Adams> i think it's somewhat a matter of "if we build it, they will come"
<jennifer_> good point R
<jennifer_> i think that by building it to cross the line ... it does
<SueTeri> agreed randy
<R_Adams> just keep working, the net spreads
<jennifer_> One thing I haven't liked tho' about the 'crew' approach was ...
<jennifer_> when an arts org got some already well known artists together with coders
<jennifer_> as if the coding was ... just a tech skill
<jennifer_> not an art
<SueTeri> oh yes I can see how that might be a danger
<R_Adams> I have some difficulty with the net likened to film
<SueTeri> Randy - say more
<R_Adams> well, Flash and whatnot looks like slow, stuttering movies sometimes
<jennifer_> yes it does
<Alan_McDonald> Are we reinventing an artistic wheel? Is that what you mean, Randy?
<jennifer_> we don't want to just replicate what other people are doing in other media and doing much more professionally, do we?
<R_Adams> so artists with limited resources have to find a way to overcome
<R_Adams> collaborating means sharing
<SueTeri> agreed, Jen
<jennifer_> Randy, that was exactly the point of Daddy ... and its tech
<R_Adams> ?
<jennifer_> you probably haven't seen the piece, Randy, sorry
<R_Adams> k
<jennifer_> but I used low baud low res graphics specifically to call attention to that
<R_Adams> I visited your new heart thing and laughed and laughed, great
<jennifer_> Randy ... I haven't had a chance to look at your work yet but am looking forward to
<jennifer_> I think it's time for me to thank Helen
<jennifer_> and trAce
<Helen_Whitehead> Annie was raving about your work to Jennifer yesterday, Randy!
<R_Adams> viva trace
<SueTeri> who is steve duffy?
<jennifer_> he's in webartery I think
<Steve_Duffy> yes, it's true, sorry if I'm spooking you
<SueTeri> thanks for coming jen, I am really glad we managed to get here
* jennifer_ is having trouble keeping everyone straight lately
<SueTeri> teri has gone to work now
<jennifer_> yes I am so glad you did too
<Helen_Whitehead> Thank YOU Jennifer, A lot of people tonight, and a lot of questions
<SueTeri> oh hi steve!
<Steve_Duffy> hi
<jennifer_> It was wild Helen
<Helen_Whitehead> wild ...yes
<Helen_Whitehead> Hi Steve! Hope you've enjoyed your visit!
* Loki93c_ likes the ebb & flow of wild
<SueTeri> and thanks to Helen for chairing - great job as usual
<jennifer_> thanks for all the great questions Helen
<Helen_Whitehead> Are you ready to finish now Jennifer?
<Steve_Duffy> indeed, very interesting
<jennifer_> I thought you might want to Helen
* Helen_Whitehead applauds
* Loki93c_ applauds
<Helen_Whitehead> Very interesting chat. Many thanks Jen
<jennifer_> did you want me to say anything else??
<Steve_Duffy> thx jennifer, thx all
<R_Adams> cut and paste all your prepared answers ;-)
<Helen_Whitehead> Is there anything you'd like to say to wrap up?
<jennifer_> hehe
<jennifer_> just something that will sound sentimental
<Helen_Whitehead> I'll post the prepared ones on the webpage too
<jennifer_> thanks Helen
<Helen_Whitehead> you're welcome
<jennifer_> I really appreciate all of you so very much ...
<R_Adams> mutual
<jennifer_> and look so forward to the future :)
* SueTeri smiles at Jennifer
<SueTeri> me too!
<jennifer_> off to get my husband to stop playing the racing game ;)
<jennifer_> love you all !!!!
*** jennifer_ has quit IRC
Session Close: Sun Mar 12 22:26:30 2000

We hope you enjoyed this conversation and would like to join in.
trAce is live online every Sunday, and you are warmly invited to come along to the next meeting.

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Question and Answer Interview with Jennifer Ley

Helen Whitehead: How did you first start working on the Web? Do you also write for print? How do you define such web work? hypertext, cybertext, web-specific writing, net-art?

Jennifer: I came to the web very much by design ... I wanted to work in hypertext. I was immediately dismayed at how primitive the coding possibilities were in the beginning, but that has changed rapidly.

I now call my work 'digital literature' most of the time, as that seems the best descriptor, although it still doesn't address how large a role the 'image' plays in my work. Before coming to the net I was writing and working as a visual artist, performing my poetry as 'Spoken Word'. I still do publish some print work, but rarely ... I'm much too intrigued by what the web allows me to do.

Helen. Did you have any training relevant to Web work, or have you been self taught?

Jennifer: I taught myself most of what I know about coding, and have picked things up as I've gone on from other people working in our field (the kindness of strangers motif ;) those strangers soon becoming friends). I still write most of my code from the ground up, I don't use an html generator, though I do use public domain Javascripts which I then customize.

Helen: Would you say there are any particular themes to your work and in what way is the Web or the Internet an appropriate medium for these?

Jennifer: I've always been interested in the place where image meets text - my educational background is in the visual arts. So the web, as its programming language has evolved, has been perfect to explore this intersection. I like to think that the language of hypertext can turn almost any reading experience into one that has poetic, imagistic properties, thus expanding the role of poetry in digital writing, and in the lives of those who read it.

Poetry thrives on that which resonates in a much fuller sense than can be 'described' ... and I think the hyperlinking, layering, animating technology on the Web can spotlight that kind of concentrated resonance. It's a way of taking something seen as a problem - short attention spans - and turning it into an asset.

Helen: Daddy Liked His With Heart is your piece for frAme 4. Congratulations on having the piece also accepted for the SIGGRAPH Art Gallery. Was it written specially or did the theme fit with something you were already thinking about or working on?

Jennifer: The piece is something I was working on which I showed to Christy after Digital Arts and Culture in Atlanta. A lot happened at that conference, and when I came back, I was seeing a lot of 'tech for the sake of tech' work on the Web so this piece is, on one level, a commentary on that. It takes the superficiality of midi, rough animation best suited to lower baud rates and throws that into the face of some pretty intense emotional content. I've continued to explore this "heart" theme in Home is Where the Heart(h) Is and a new piece, the Midas Touch.

Helen: Tell us something about the creative process as you worked on the piece. (Or general comments about your creative process)

Jennifer: This piece started with the heart 'art' and blood system animation animation and the 'cheesey' midi snare tracks I had found. Then I started working on the 'text' sections, which come from memories of my father, who died very suddenly of a heart attack when I was fifteen. Much of my work evolves ... I'll start from a visual premise or a personal memory, or my thinking on a particular subject, and see where that takes me. Also, and I think this is more apparent in some of the text in the Body Politic, even though I love image, I really like the 'sound' of language, of words, and this is something I pay alot of attention to in the text.

I also try to maintain a certain amount of tension between what the work is saying in a formal or theoretical sense, and what the works interior emotional voice is. Each piece developes its own voice ... of course, that is my voice, but there is a state of grace in the creative process when it's working well where the voice of the 'piece' becomes so much wiser and more perceptive than one's own individual, linear thinking could be.

Helen: Was it originally part of a series or did that evolve?

Jennifer: The series evolved, though I was pretty aware that the potential existed. If you sit down and free associate on the word/image 'heart' ... so many different directions open up that it became clear to me I'd need more than one piece to explore them all. Home is Where the Heart(h) Is is about my mother's mother, whereas the Midas Touch is not as emotive, much more about process and parable. I'm now working on a way to tie them together.

Helen: The piece has been accepted in two places: frAme4 and SIGGRAPH. Where else have you published or displayed web pieces? Are there any recommendations you would make to writers starting out with web work looking for where to place it?

Jennifer: I've published online in the Animist, an Aussie ezine archived by the National Library of Australia, in Snakeskin, a UK zine and a few other places when I was just starting out with hypertext. trAce has been good to me ;) you have my Body Politic which was shown at DAC 99 in My Millennium, which Christy also curated. And the second Hearts piece is in the Valentine Files, curated by David Knoebel and hosted at the Electronic Poetry Center.

More magazines are beginning to take web work, my own, Riding the Meridian, has published quite a bit of it recently, BeeHive, which just published Christy's piece has as well ... a new zine called Aileron by Ed Buffaloe has work by Margie Coverley Luesebrink and I think, Deena Larsen. And of course there's Iowa Review Web and ebr at Alt-X, and other journals like the Little Magazine which have been around alot longer, and some like Salt Hill which did great work and now seem to be dormant. As the genre becomes more popular, more and more sites are 'jumping on the band wagon' ... so what I look for is an editorial staff with a commitment to exploring new forms of literature, not one that just wants to promote hypertext because it's the hot new thing and it might get them more hits to include it.

Helen: You worked with Christy's workshop when she was trAce Writer-in-Residence? Did that have a significance for you? Did it change, improve or enhance your writing practice?

Jennifer: Christy's workshop came at the perfect time for me ... I needed a supportive community, both for technical knowledge and creative development, as I'd been trying to show my hypertext work in a 'text' poetry environment, and most of those people just didn't understand what I was doing. They certainly couldn't help me develop all the new tech skills I needed, as Dhtml and Javascript made the work more interactive for the reader. And in this field, I think you really need to be aware of and involved with the work of others who are in the process of defining the medium, we all draw strength from each other.

Helen: You're also an editor -- of the journal Riding the Meridian and as both artist and editor concerned with quality. Do you think there are standards by which web work can be judged? (Is there anything trAce can do to help to define those standards?)

Jennifer: I get nervous around the issue of 'standards' in a field as new as ours, I would think they could be limiting. I think the practioners of the work are doing a very good job of defining a current, ever-mutable 'standard' which constantly changes as the work evolves, and I'm most comfortable with writers/artists providing any definitions that might seem necessary right now. As an editor, I see my role as one of making available the wide variety of work that now resides under the rubric 'literature', helping it to find a wider audience, and demonstrating how it is changing, and also, of providing historical perspective. Digital literature owes a debt to other forms of writing and art making which preceeded it and are still practiced ... and I think it's important to remember that. There are also other issues for digital literature: archival, software, browser and cross/platform issues, which I think might be more important to address than definitive aesthetic standards right now.

Helen: What advice would you give to a writer just starting to explore and experiment with the Web as tool and medium?

Jennifer: I would tell them to keep it simple at first, so that they can build a knowledge base of the code structure ... there's nothing more frustrating than using one of those code editors and having it go wonky on you. Wired has a series of tutorials that take you from basic html to advanced coding called Web Monkey that I find very useful.

That said, I can also see why someone new might want to just buy Dreamweaver and Flash and have a go at it ... take the immersive approach. It probably depends on the individual. Either way, I would suggest they get involved with an online community, like trAce, or a listserv like webartery.com where they can meet people who share their interests. Community is the most essential aspect of working in this medium.

Helen: You're adventurous, but also elegant, in your use of HTML and graphics -- can Web writers keep ahead of the technology, do you think? Is it necessary to constantly experiment? Where do you think you might move next?

Jennifer: Well thank you Helen :) Keeping up with the changes is a challenge. I try to teach myself something new for each piece I do. I think experimentation is an essential aspect of the work right now, you can't separate it out. It's as if someone just gave us color and the color wheel, and we're finding out how to mix pigments together, what clashes, what doesn't, and, when clashing works, too.

I'm getting a new Mac next week, so I'll need to sit down in mid-April after I finish everything I'm currently committed to doing (article writing, readings, etc.), get out my 'raw materials': my text poetry, art, new coding possibilities, and see what tumbles out of the digital crucible. I would like to find the time to develop a longer, more involved piece, and am going to be trying my hand at more interactive work, where I can engage the audience in feedback ... I have two projects like this that I'm working on already, This Is Not A Book, and in the fOOtsteps of the Father. I would love to use Shockwave and build some literary games ... but at $1000 for the software, I think that will have to wait.

Helen: Do you think there is a living, or any money at all, to be made for creative writers on the Web? Do you have any recommendations for anyone trying to work in this field? (What do you do offline to make a living?)

Jennifer: I've worked on tv commercials as a script supervisor for twenty years ... which has always afforded me plenty of time for my own work, albeit with some restrictions in my ability to schedule being out of town ... one never knows when the work will come in. In a way, I rather like doing this, in that it keeps me aware of the outside world and what stands in for 'importance' for a wide segment of the population; I appreciate getting that perspective.

I'm very aware that the very openess the web gives us (running a website for about $300 a year) also works against us as far as developing a paying market for our work. I see the museums starting to address this ... but museums generally only support a small group of artists in a field. Grants ... I've gone the grant route on an earlier print project; getting grants is almost an art form unto itself. Will the new e-books give us an audience? I'm not sure ... sales of any kind of literary work are usually not that high. But I think it is very encouraging how many people are willing to read literature online ... in the stat referrals to my sites, I see alot of plain ole home pages of people who are not writers or artists, so I find this encouraging.

Helen. Any particularly recommended sites?

Jennifer: There are so many great sites out there ... perhaps the easiest thing to do is to recommend http://www.ilef.org/ and the members link at that site. This is the Internet Literary Editor's Fellowship, which I founded with four other editors last year, and our membership is a pretty wide sampling of all the different kinds of literature publications online.

Helen: Thanks, Jennifer.

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