Hi Helen --

Hi Helen, all ...

This questions seems to feed into a few other questions, not least among them using technology because it suits one's purpose, not merely because one can. But ... more and more on the Internet ... it is the availability of technology that seems to be driving the stylistic and more important, content/schematic aspects of new literary work.

Always cited in this discussion is how tiring it is to read long works on a computer screen, and as a reader and writer I can vouch for that.

Exactly what IS hypertext? It seems many people use the term to include more than just html linked language ... it seems to me you're asking is text based communication becoming a thing of the past on the net ... and I guess I'd have to say yes to that with certain specific instances of difference.

One has to do with how different people access information on the net ... ie. in countries where you are all paying for every second you're online, it makes sense to grab things, log off and read them later. In the US ... we don't pay by the minute generally, and thus I think the US audience might be more prone to 'jumping about'.

I noticed the difference in communication when I joined a mail list with alot of international members ... who wrote their responses to issues offline ... you could really see a difference in the amount of verbiage some of these people created as opposed to 'I'm online writing now' users of the net. Or so it seemed to me. Also, this community had a lot of academic writers in it ... which might also have had an affect on the careful construction of their email correspondence.

One thing that did surprise me vis a vis creating longer works were how many people WERE willing to read the round table discussions I hosted. Perhaps because they covered subjects most readers weren't going to find easily outside the net environment, people seemed to stay with them ... and some were quite long.

So perhaps text isn't so much dead as a means of communication on the net, as it is useful for specific kinds of communication?? For myself as an artist/writer ... I especially like the use of visuals to enhance imagery ... and some of the new programming tools available ... but then I also make a living in the film businesss ... so I'm going to be drawn in that direction.

Long answer for a live typing on line gal huh??

Hi Helen, these certainly are big questions and i have been wondering round the edges of them especially since I started looking at the work of other members of the group.

>I want to ask everyone a question (well quite a lot of linked questions, >actually!).

>Is hypertext dead? Is the era of the Web being text-based already gone?

I think the web will always be a conduit of information based sites dealing in text

>Is there still a place for simple, readable text, or must we include the >Java, the shockwave, the animation and graphics, the video, sound, dynamic >html that most of the group are already using?

I think this is a key question. I feel I have to conquer multimedia for the web. This is partly to do with people's attention spans, partly to explore what is possible. It's partly my own aesthetic. and I worry because I don't have programming skills beyond html. Lots of the members of the group use more text than me. But even then they are combining it with a lot of images.

Dear Tracers--

Re Helen's question about the role of text in on-line fiction and poetry, I'm forwarding the results from the NYU Press hypertext fiction contest. As you will see when you go to look at these texts, they are texts--with some lovely illustrations. They are very nice. On the other hand, some of us are using gadgets and wizbangs (me included) because that is where the fun is. I have a day job, as they say, and the joy of hypertext writing from the beginning was the opportunity to use color and photos and have movement and music. Otherwise, I would never put in the time that the technical stuff always takes, gizmos or no. Just a word. Hope you all enjoy the NYU winners and apply next year. (I missed the date entirely!)
[http://www.nyupress.nyu.edu/hypertext]

Good topic for discussion.

> Is hypertext dead? Is the era of the Web being text-based already gone?

As Margie pointed out, the NYU Press Prize for Hyperfiction, went to two very straight forward hypertexts. So, hypertext is not dead in NYC. Surprising as the judges both use images/high tech techniques at their sites! Could be that the entries were limited. I never saw an announcement.

I have worked with print-based writing groups that were mixed in terms of fiction writers and poets. The poets tend to think the fiction writers are not distilled enough, take too long to say what they want to say. In general, they are impatient with the slow unfolding of a story. Fiction writers, on the other hand, often look at poetry and say they can't read it. Refuse to critique it. The leaps, the emphasis on naming/image/emotion, any number of things that poetry does well, turns them off. Some people are switch hitters or genre fusionists, who can tolerate both. Anyway, this was a rather windy way of saying that I think the preferences of fiction writers and poets carries over to a great extent to the web.

Aside from that, I think the web opened up a vista for those who like image and text because of background, training or taste. And it opened up a place for those who like many of the kinetic/cinematic possibilities.

To me, and this is an inhouse comment, the NY winners look old-fashioned. I can't see much challenge there. You could practically transfer those texts to print, I believe that could be done with a few page divisions and arrows. That's not a crime, of course, but it seems quite at the beginning of the revolution in terms of possibilities. One could put out a book of loose leaves and shuffle them, right? There's more there to do with nonlinearity than conceptual frameworks.

I think what is happening, finally, is that the definition of hypertext is being expanded. Just as hypertext has eclipsed the larger category of html, linking has eclipsed hypertext. I mean by that that "hypertext" was a narrowing of definition. And "linking" URLs was a further narrowing. Now, I believe, the idea of hypertext and linking are reopening to include all of the possible varieties of conceptual linking. You don't have to always jump to a new URL to introduce a new idea or expand an idea. Inclusiveness is not dependent on a new html page. A pop out or a roll over or layers or timelines, these are only the beginning. These, by the way, could all be text-based. Use of image and music interest me, but I don't think, to have a successful web work that they are necessary.

I agree with Jenny, the medium has changed my writing. I have been trying to let image influence the text and the text influence the image without explication or illustration. Not always, but in general. Also, I think sometimes I am overwhelmed, giddy with the possibilities and that this may make the actual text suffer. Still, I feel I can only show doors, windows, cracks to expand, open the field to new work. This is my job.

Diane said "this medium is radically changing my writing and my reading".

I have thought for some time that hypertext is an acquired taste - especially when (IMHO) - it is made even more complicated by graphic rollovers, navigation buttons that don't "navigate", and the author deliberately being vague about what they want to achieve. (yes, *I KNOW* that's the whole point - but does the reader?) I think as a medium for writers who want to be *Published*, hypertext isn't going to cut it, in the end, does anyone who doesn't write hypertext read it? (I await the flames) Bearing in mind Diane's comment that she is deliberately changing her cognitive style in order to get the best from it.

Having said that - interactive games started as pure text e.g. "Hitch-hikers guide", and have now become interactive graphic extravaganzas. Some people prefer the new look, I wouldn't say that anyonw prefers pure text games any more, but there are certainly several people who don't mind either way.

Perhaps this has to do with their own learning style, or more broadly, cognitive style. Maybe someone has to write something that is just so damn good in hypertext, that it converts people to the medium - otherwise, to be honest, it's just too much effort (and dare I say, too arty-farty) for readers to bother.

Liz