The Web and Collaboration
Have you collaborated on web projects? (Christy1, 2/12/99 12:20:29 PM)
There are many ways to collaborate, some quite simple, such as two people building on each other's text. Or the Noon Quilt, which although complex, demanded short passages from each participant. Have you experienced the joys/frustrations of a joint project on the web?
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Barbara Steinberg (mariarosa, 2/12/99 10:18:31 PM)Oh good. A chance to vent. :-)
One of the communities I am building is Western Hang Gliders Online. http://www.westernhanggliders.org
It is an online expression of the superb real-life community around a hang gliding school in Marina Beach, California.
Marina Beach is a magical place with golden eagles and Jeep Eagles, and humor, and some of the best hang gliding pilots in the world. Stories pour out of my favorite master pilot, George Reeves, like the one when he saw two naked people smoking after sex on the supposedly hidden beach dunes. He swooped down within 3 feet of them and yelled, "That's so cliche!" Then there was the time he tried to make some Aboriginal tribesmen in Australia say "cheesy fuckin' ho" in a bar. He is the funniest man I ever met in my life.
So I'm thinking. Great! I am going to bring these voices to the web. I have story databases on there, a log book where students can record the progress of their lessons, a guestbook, pictures of everyone, information, and a mailing list with FAQ.
No one uses the site. Everyone really likes it, but no one has made that jump into actually interacting with it. I suppose me being 3000 miles away in New York finishing up a masters degree might have something to do with it, too.
For now, I have found that it is harder to bring a real-life community online than it is to create an online community out of an idea.
But it might be because people have to see you there. They have to see your commitment every day so they will always know you will take care of things.
So, a joint project on the web. Well, an online community site is a joint project on the web, if people come and use it. I am waiting for the summer season, when things pick up and I have finally moved out there. Then I might be able to go to people's houses and threaten to shoot their pets. :-)
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Margaret Penfold (Saada, 2/13/99 2:52:16 AM)Guess I will have to pass this site onto my son, Barbara. Last September he broke his back and two legs. He technically 'died' on the operating table, lucky he was not paralised. He is making a fantastic recovery but he still can't run which is apparently necessary for landings. A site like this will keep him going until he can get back up there.
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Christy Sheffield Sanford (Christy1, 2/13/99 11:12:37 AM)I think, too, Barbara, that many physical types, and obviously this doesn't include everyone, don't like to sit inside and look at a screen. They crave adventure and the web isn't exciting in a way that involves large muscle groups. Not that it has anything to do with intelligence. I don't think that. More kinetic needs.
If you could show that site--large, outdoors--you might get more response.
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Barbara Steinberg (mariarosa, 2/16/99 9:20:46 AM)Some pilots are computer geeks, some are not. One guy is a database programming genius who makes everyone listen with that still face of awe when he talks. Another guy was a submarine welder on the night shift at General Dynamics. Pilots come in all shapes and sizes. The thing they have in common is an ability to conquer fear. Make the ground afraid of you.
It takes more than large muscles to be a pilot. In fact you don't really have to have large muscles. Flying is as much a psychological belief that you can fly coupled with practice to build up technique and knowledge of the wind. It is more mental than physical.
As I mentioned, a lot of pilots work in the computer industry. What I think the problem is is that I am 3000 miles away and am not there at Mountain Mike's eating pizza and beer talking about how much fun it is to talk on the web, and how the school can make money out of the increased customer loyalty.
The other thing I have to do is get that wind talker working on the web so they can check the conditions from the computer. Give them a practical reason to use the site. That is the hook, and I have been too busy to do anything about it.
At the moment, location is my biggest drawback, but I hope to fix that when I move out there in June, fly every day in the summer, be a beach girl, and get things going again.
I am not sure that the environmental regulations on that beach dune would permit a large screen outdoors.Those regulations are a political cauldron I am not about to walk into.
What the site needs is a practical purpose. Let the pilots check the wind by just having to dial instead of having to go out. Appeal to laziness. :-) Also, it needs me to be there to organize things, it needs the summer season when they get more students than they can handle and we can recruit for the list, and some marketing materials.
However, playing with wireless live cameras to show a screen shot of the pilots flying on some large outdoor screen would appeal to their egos. :-)
Appealing to laziness and ego and of course the profit motive, yup, that'll work. :-)
Cheers...
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Christy Sheffield Sanford (Christy1, 2/16/99 10:30:11 PM)Hi, Barbara, I thought it took prowess to be a hang glider. Maybe you will take me with you. I hunger for adventure. I met a couple in their 50's in France who were jumping off mountains. Parapont? Can't remember exact spelling. Well, maybe that's another angle, the hang-gliding around the world theme.
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Barbara Steinberg (mariarosa, 2/17/99 8:29:18 AM)What a superb idea. Flying around the world. You can do balloons, paragliding, hang gliding, ultralighting! Get people to send stories and pictures. What a great idea to add a feature like that to the hang gliding site. I love it. Totally. (a California word :-)
Unfortunately I couldn't take you tandem, as I am just begining my intermediate pilot studies, but there are tandem instructors at licensed hang gliding schools. They take you up, you get the feeling (aka drug fix), and then you get hooked. Or you could just start taking lessons as a beginner and get hooked. :-) You will always be welcome where I glide.
You are right, it does take prowess, very much so, but it is such a combination of physical skill (as opposed to strength), the emotional ability to conquer fear, knowledge of aerodynamics, knowing how to read and feel the wind, judgment of when not to fly, etc. There are so many parts to it, it is a whole discussion in itself.
My challenge is to catch the wealth of flying stories in a written context on the web. And I think the flying-around-the-world theme works beautifully. Thank you very much. :-)
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I love collaboration (Helen Whitehead, 2/20/99 2:37:02 PM)I've collaborated on a few projects now, ranging from just one other writer to a whole planetful of children ;-) (see the Monster Motel at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/kotn/motel/ )
The whole business of web and email makes collaboration in the process of writing straightforward. You can share each others' work online, edit it, send it back and forth, create and recreate and finally make available to the public.
One word of warning: don't let the "public" or the "audience" have a glimpse of the work-in-progress: make sure they get the finished work! There's nothing worse than finding the arts festival has linked to your scrappy work-in-progress instead of the beautifully finished site!
It can take a lot of emails at the peak of a collaboration. I got up to 35 recently in one day to one person: Mark Burgess who collaborated in bringing Monster Motel to birth. Any advance.....?
P.S. I love the flight theme for a collaboration.... look forward to seeing if anything comes of it!
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Christy Sheffield Sanford (Christy1, 3/20/99 9:42:31 PM)Many people say they want to collaborate with me, but I find it difficult to explore and find a mutually fulfilling project. People I admire are doing such different work from my own. Everyone is busy, busy, busy. I've had really great people approach me, but project collaboration is rather delicate and mysterious. I've had ideas and hired others to help me realize them, but I don't think I would call that collaboration. True collaboration is rare, I think. I am quite happy when it happens.
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reiner strasser (restra, 3/21/99 3:01:56 AM)I agree Christy.
It is in some kind really magic.
The cause maybe that 'creating' is not a concious process, not a conceptual work. I often get something else than i have thought first. (which gives me this unique feeling of liberty ... breaking my own boundaries.)
love .... reiner
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Collaboration with writers different from yourself.... (Helen Whitehead, 3/21/99 5:04:22 AM)Collaboration doesn't have to be with people who write in the same way as yourself.
When you're exploring writing on the Web, particularly, each can contribute in a different way. The knack is, I think, to agree on a format in which each writer can express her/himself in the way she/he feels satisfaction with.
This could mean setting some ground rules, or just agreeing on a subject or a theme. Some of my most interesting collaborations have been with writers wildly different from myself. The experience is great for expanding one's own horizons.
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hmm (lars, 3/25/99 1:45:46 PM)wrote a long post here, but it "went somewhere else" in the posting process. Will try later, since believe what the wwweb - in the end - is all about - collaboration. Maybe. Or Sex. Whatever.
Anyone checked out the WIKI site - at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki ?
Weird - but it does allow for collaborative writing, - in fact - one is welcomed to come in and edit other people's writings.
Should we check it out, together? What do we want to write about?
This is not an acid dream.
I'm frightened. More L8R
and ps: Margaret
- in 3 of 11 please let us know how your son is doing. Always thought of flying as safe, till got a private pilot's licence. :) 12 of 39
Flavia Dzodan (yanna, 3/25/99 9:43:01 PM)lars, i started something in http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HyperKinesis
i dont have plans for it, its the way i was feeling when i wrote it. just a starting point. anyone can feel free to go add/ delete or post there.
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Christy Sheffield Sanford (Christy1, 3/26/99 11:25:55 PM)I wrote something minimal there, too, at the wiki site. I'm not sure how that site works; I guess I better revisit. But not now, bedtime. Night, night from E.S.T.
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g'nite from c.e.t. Christy (lars, 3/27/99 10:55:01 AM)and arggh, Flavia
went in and added a paragraph, but clicked "reset" instead of "save" will go back. The very concept of Wiki, is absolutely fascinating, to me. Maybe we could try write some children's tales together, or something. Stories from our childhood. Something simple. ?
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Christy Sheffield Sanford (Christy1, 3/27/99 9:37:06 PM)Funny you should mention children's tales. I went to a psychic fare, :-) and a psychic told me I would be writing something for children. I have never written anything for children. But I think I am now: http://gnv.fdt.net/~christys/raton-laveur/cravate7.html
Okay, I'm tired of leading, I have been leading all week, you lead! How do we do the wiki? sounds like a dance.
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Flavia Dzodan (yanna, 3/28/99 3:46:28 PM)erm, in the most recalcitrant latin american tradition i will say: lars leads, i am a lady ;-)
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Margaret Penfold (Saada, 3/29/99 3:23:35 AM)Hi Llars,
Lars, Thank you for asking about my son, John. The sod is back flying although he still finds running difficult. He has written up the accident and recovery experience for Barbara's hang gliding site. He sent me a draft for assessment and I was annoyed to find the writing good. Why should my son be a better writer than myself?
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hmm (lars, 4/3/99 10:38:46 AM)since it's my 48th birthday today, I flatter you - and with pleasure, Margaret: "because he learned from the best?"
Flavia
- well, it could be fun - will write some suggestions - maybe we can coordinate something between wiki and *here*? Christy - just hecked out http://gnv.fdt.net/~christys/raton-laveur/cravate7.html - and got a 404 url error. Maybe server is down.
Here's an idea: I'll copy/rewrite a couple of children stories from my childhood in norway, you think about or do same from your childhood, list them here, maybe, then try combine it into one single story, or several single short stories (you know the attention span of children, and "angry bitter old men" like myself) - using Wiki. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki
am absolutely new to wiki, find it a little intimidating, as I find much new "stuff" - but may know a couple of people with some experience there. They were kids once, too ....... I think.
A lazy summer project, maybe, get on the kids' good side before xmas, knowing they will be controlling the web access routes when we're all in "the home."
sorry, gotta stop this :)
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funny (lars, 4/3/99 10:54:37 AM)post was dated from 3/27 - but I know have been here since then - and this is first time I saw any of these responses. System has been buggy, though.
Kicked me out when trying to post the above - 19 - and surprised to see it actually posted.
Christy Sheffield Sanford (Christy1, 4/7/99 9:46:09 PM) I've been writing Lars and Flavia to try and figure out a proper place to post our childrens' stories. Lars and I think the Forum area would be good. I'm consumed with travel plans, and I believe Flavia is too. I'll try to open the Forum area before I leave for Boston on Friday. Thanks for your patience.
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Flavia Dzodan (yanna, 4/8/99 7:01:21 PM)well...in exactly 2 weeks i am leaving to holland so i am in pre trip panic. originally i was going to stay for 2 weeks (with a weekend in paris in between) but today i was asked if i could make it 3 weeks or a month. well, i'll see. so for the time being, i am totally available...after the 22nd my online time will be reduced to reading/answering mail and flying over posts.
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safe travels! (lars, 4/10/99 9:15:32 AM)and all being busy, thought it appropriate to make this a longer term project (flying to le States soon, myself). Forums sounds good.
I'll give Wiki a try, guess I have to start with someone else's post, then save as new page, or something.
As I mentioned to Christy in mail, "my formative years" were quite influenced by writers and tellers (on radio, as well as parents) of children's stories. Today's parents, (and this is only my guess) spend more and more time on computers, and on the net. And so do (and will do) (and this is only my guess..:) children, at younger and younger ages.
So I think about this, especially when out walking, looking about me, and at all the children. What kind of children's stories will they read, together with parents, in front of a computer screen?
How can we, together, give them something good, something timely? I don't know. My story line - which comes to mind when out walking in nature) is "Are there monsters in the clouds" (and of course do they live in castles on the clouds, too :) heres a pic, (maybe]: clouds and trolls of norway
Maybe accompanied with some good pictures, graphics etc - who knows, streaming video, and of course, sound. Not good at this aspect of web-stuff, graphics etc, that is.
Flavia, a travel recommendation when going to Paris. Take the super-train from Brussels, if you get a chance. Most civilized way to travel, ime.
And ps to hosts. Still bugs in the system. "New" posts here do not register on my "favorite" list, i.e. cheking in here "manually" see all these new posts. Oh well, that too shall pass.
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Flavia Dzodan (yanna, 4/10/99 7:04:00 PM)lars, thanx a lot for the advice =)
thing is that i am going by car with a friend who lives in holland actually (my host), so the train will have to wait till my next travel.
greetings for everyone
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my goodness,: The Monster Motel (lars, 4/12/99 10:34:15 AM)I just saw this, one minute ago, Mark Burgess' idea, from the trAce homepage. Believe it or not. Then again, I never claimed original thoughts.
This is cool. Can't drop the bookmark to it, from inside CW, it seems.
And safe driving, Flavia. In my experience, Europeans, the French, Norwegian and Italian ones in particular, drive like nuts. One is much safer on a train. Enjoy ! :)
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ok, so I am senile (lars, 4/12/99 10:35:26 AM)http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/kotn/motel/
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hahahahahahahahaha (lars, 4/12/99 10:41:59 AM)http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/kotn/motel/kitchen.html
i need to work on my diet.
(sorry for the interruption)
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Nancy White (choconancy, 4/12/99 4:01:32 PM)I love the motel!
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aplogy to Helen (lars, 4/14/99 12:54:09 PM)(Helen Whitehead) in post <8>. Hope all is well! i went too fast again, didn't click on/explore the bookmark .
And so it goes. Be it Less or Unless.
:)
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Jennifer Ley (jley, 4/16/99 3:19:17 AM)Did i miss out on the children's stories?? My favorites were Madeliene L'Engle and C.S. Lewis's Tales from Narnia ...
i used to write for kids ... on environmental stuff ... created a whole group of characters to tell stories ... those were fun times ...
tell me more about wiki??
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From Monster Motel Editor (Helen Whitehead, 4/17/99 3:39:11 AM)Glad Lars and Nancy like the Motel
It has been phenomenally successful with kids all over the world. Yesterday I was taking groups of 6 and 7 year olds through it: they loved it.
Kids on the Net welcomes collaboration from adults as well as kids (witness Mark Burgess's idea for the Motel)
If there's a project you'd like to start that kids can join in too, please contact me kidsnet@dial.pipex.com and we'll arrange it.
Childhood stories sounds like an idea we can develop for the whole family: grandad, dad, anyone as well as kids. Want to help get it going?
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Margaret Penfold (Saada, 4/17/99 8:04:12 AM)Hi Helen, Breetings from the USA. cAN i HELP WITH THE CHILDREN;S syories
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Margaret Penfold (Saada, 4/19/99 12:26:03 PM)Sorry Helen,
I suppose I could pretend that last posting was experimental writing but it would be a lie. I was working in Pine on a strange keyboard and someone else had more urgent need of the computer so I just pushed 'send' and left. What I wanted to say was I would love to be involved with children's stories.
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Nancy White (choconancy, 4/19/99 5:39:11 PM)I'm interested!
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collaboration (Saada, 4/20/99 1:59:06 AM)A Moo session with a purpose? It would be rather fun if it could be timed so that there were a group of us at the trace office. Sue, do you think that would be possible to arrange?
I am posting this through Outlook Express using plain text rather than going back into CommunityWare. Last time I did this the message came out most peculiarly. If it does so this time I will not try it again but it would be convenient if it did convert correctly.
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Sue Thomas (Sue Thomas, 4/20/99 4:42:59 PM)Saada
sure, we could arrange a moo session with a purpose, but I am wondering whether your mail turned up in the right place. Wasn't the moo discussion somewhere else?
sue
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(Ragged Claws, 4/20/99 6:40:38 PM)Saada, if you also set Outlook to wrap lines automatically at 55 characters when sending, the long-line/short-line/long-line/short-line/etc. problem in your email posts (see above) should disappear.
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Flavia Dzodan (yanna, 4/21/99 5:38:52 PM)erm...the moo discussion was in the chat topic =/
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Sue Thomas (Sue Thomas, 4/21/99 11:36:02 PM)Thanks Flavia!
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excuses excuses (lars, 5/24/99 11:40:22 PM)sorry have not followed up here, but aside from server problems, went from a "recreation mode" to real busy-like, in real life. Work work work, travel too, ---- but - inspiration will hit one day, and I'll start something. This summer.
Hope your trip went well, Falvia!